Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 2, 2012 at 8:17am

Sorry you feel that way but I have never in the past gotten a much in the way of a response when trying to talk to Julie directly.

Adam "Cezar" Jenkins said:

I understand your sentiment Dug, but the way you said it was assholish and trollish. It's full of anger, sarcasm, and unfair accusations. 

I had thought better of you. I really did.

I think you owe an apology to Julie. You could have emailed her and asked instead of trolling your way about it. I think she would have changed it for you, or eased your concerns. Even publicly you could have been tactful about it, but you weren't, you were and ass.

I am seriously disappointed in you.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 2, 2012 at 8:22am

You do know you have just described the entire internet, right?

Craig S. said:

 fun to witness but also a big waste of time.

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Permalink Reply by S on January 2, 2012 at 8:27am

Daniel G said:

Your enthusiasm for this "obligation", as you describe it, will not make you (or anyone you know) wealthy. Go ahead and watch your neighborhood fall apart as local businesses shutter their doors one-by-one and tax revenues spiral. And better pray that your treasured globalized economy is able to keep your millions of tractor-trailers full of plastic crap on the interstates when gasoline hits nine dollars. Your attitude is pessimistic conservatism and nothing more. Citizens protect and support their neighbors. Consumers pursue aggressively their so-called obligation to sit on their pile of greenbacks and jealously guard it against all invasion. Unless you are so foolish as to be actually waiting for the money you send to Bentonville, AR to trickle back down to Logan Square, this is not an economic philosophy. Just short-sighted selfishness.

At some point, the price difference is large enough between an online store and your LBS that unless you're independently wealthy, it becomes very difficult to justify buying at the LBS.  A lot of it varies based on income levels, but I think most people would be okay with a 10% or 20% premium to get something now.  However, once the difference goes above that, I'd think it would get very difficult to justify especially if you're trying to make ends meet.

Interestingly, no one has really mentioned one of the prime factors in price differences between online and retail in IL and in Chicago specifically.  Namely, the fact that most online places don't charge sales tax on orders.  People are supposed to declare it on their state income tax forms and pay the use tax but the vast majority don't.  Changing this would probably do a lot to help local retail.

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Permalink Reply by Craig S. on January 2, 2012 at 8:29am

Ah, not entirely so.  There's a lot of great things about the internet, like how I was able to screw my VW dealer out of outrageous charges to replace a battery in my car key because I found a way to do it myself, and not to mention all the free porn!

notoriousDUG said:

You do know you have just described the entire internet, right?

Craig S. said:

 fun to witness but also a big waste of time.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 2, 2012 at 8:43am

Here's the thing; I would have posted this regardless of me working at a bike shop or not.  This is not me speaking on behalf of Rapid Transit or as their employee; this is me speaking as myself and a member of the bicycle community in Chicago.  When I post specials or things in stock at Rapid of course part of that is promoting where I work but part of it is also helping people to get what they need and get it at a good price.  I subscribe to the ideal that a good shop is going to help you even if it is not going to serve them directly. When people are looking for stuff we don't have on hand and I know of a shop likely to do so I send them to a shop I think will have what they want if they cannot wait for an order to come in or are eager to see it before purchasing.  I do this because I would rather see the money spent here, at a local shop, than go to an online retailer. 

I have owned a business before and have a deep appreciation for what running and managing a small business entails.  Keeping people paid at a reasonable wage, providing benefits, and keeping bills paid in a sluggish economy is amazingly hard and it becomes even harder when you have to compete with companies who do not need skilled mechanics and sales people because all they need is a few guys to pull and ship orders.  Has it ever occurred to you that the issue is not that your LBS has abnormally high prices but that online retailers have abnormally low prices? 

Just curious but how old are you Brendan?  Do you remember a time before everything was easy to buy in the internet?  Or even a time before the advent of big box stores?  I do remember when being able to get things online was a new thing and the whole big benefit of it was that it was the CHEAP option.

I do not think it is better to buy local because of some utopian ideal; I feel it is better to buy local because I have seen people loose once thriving shops to the online market.  I feel it is better to buy local, at locally owned businesses because I would rather the dollar I spend on something stay in Chicago.  Let me ask you this, in this tough economy and terrible job market are you doing Chicago any good buy sending your dollars out of state? 

You know I could say the exact same about what I see from you being the same old same old but I expect that; people is people you know?  What am I suddenly going to wake up another person?

Brendan said:

Yeah, depending on how you look at it, it can take some balls to risk yours and the shop you work at's reputation with starting a thread as banal as this.  It's just a typical inflammatory internet message board post designed to enrage it's readers, and at best an attempt to drive some business to his boss' hurting shop.          

The only thing that's sad here is that I'm posting in this thread.  In a time when finding a job is at one of the hardest in history, dug attempted to construct a flimsy argument about how we should all buy our cycling gear at LBS' despite their abnormally high prices, and feel bad about ourselves when we don't.  His evidence that buying solely from LBS' is best for us and the city goes no deeper than some vague utopian ideal.    

I would like to think dug isn't a troll and is merely clueless on how to frame a rational argument, but as others have said, this is just more of the same I've seen from him since I joined this site.  

Steel Driver said:

 Thanks to DUG for the courage to post this thread.  He has inadvertently provided an important PSA, illuminating our community of the opportunity to properly support local bike driving, AKA Chainlink.  I think I ran a stop sign in that last sentence.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 2, 2012 at 8:45am

Ducking the tax is a huge part of the issue.  It is again saving money at the expense of your own local economy.

S said:

Daniel G said:

Your enthusiasm for this "obligation", as you describe it, will not make you (or anyone you know) wealthy. Go ahead and watch your neighborhood fall apart as local businesses shutter their doors one-by-one and tax revenues spiral. And better pray that your treasured globalized economy is able to keep your millions of tractor-trailers full of plastic crap on the interstates when gasoline hits nine dollars. Your attitude is pessimistic conservatism and nothing more. Citizens protect and support their neighbors. Consumers pursue aggressively their so-called obligation to sit on their pile of greenbacks and jealously guard it against all invasion. Unless you are so foolish as to be actually waiting for the money you send to Bentonville, AR to trickle back down to Logan Square, this is not an economic philosophy. Just short-sighted selfishness.

At some point, the price difference is large enough between an online store and your LBS that unless you're independently wealthy, it becomes very difficult to justify buying at the LBS.  A lot of it varies based on income levels, but I think most people would be okay with a 10% or 20% premium to get something now.  However, once the difference goes above that, I'd think it would get very difficult to justify especially if you're trying to make ends meet.

Interestingly, no one has really mentioned one of the prime factors in price differences between online and retail in IL and in Chicago specifically.  Namely, the fact that most online places don't charge sales tax on orders.  People are supposed to declare it on their state income tax forms and pay the use tax but the vast majority don't.  Changing this would probably do a lot to help local retail.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 2, 2012 at 8:49am

I don't get to decide where Rapid sends it's money and, as I said before, I would be saying this stuff regardless of me working in a shop or not.  I have been pushing local bike shops over online shops for as long as I have been a member here.

I'd like to donate here, and a lot of other places, but have you seen what they pay bike shop employees?

Joe Sak said:

A lot of people, especially Julie, work very hard to keep this site free and relevant for us. Maybe local shops like Rapid Transit would like to sponsor her efforts, so she doesn't have to resort to ads from cheap online anti-LBS services, and local shops can keep a voice here.

Not only does Julie, with little computer knowledge, work extra hard on this web site (she has advisors and help with the technical detail) but she works hard on real-life events that keep us hanging out as well. And she does it on top of a full time job.

Volunteering alone is hard, so I can't imagine being the president of a group with close to 7,000 members and managing all the details that go along with it. Your opinion about supporting local business is totally valid, but with all due respect, I think anyone unhappy with how Julie gets financial support should be ready to put their money where their mouth is.

But hey, maybe this has already been said. Cheers and happy new year to all!

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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on January 2, 2012 at 9:09am

Very well said, thank you.

h' said:

Well, I think the (seemingly basic?) point is being missed here and elsewhere that the reason independent shops can't keep the sort of accessory inventory that chains and online sources can is that they aren't able to come anywhere near the necessary volume needed to be able to do so.

I know just wishing for it is not going to make it so, as most people posting here would clearly not be willing to spend a penny more than they have to, but it's not rocket science to see that local shops would be able to do higher volume and thus offer a wider selection and lower prices if more folks made an effort to purchase there and the percentage of good purchased by Chicagoland cyclists from national chains and e-tailers were less.

And this gets back to the central question of how our buying decisions determine the options that are ultimately available to us locally. 

I'd be interested in an informed response David's question as to why independent shops in other countries seem better able to offer a selection of accessories.

Joel said:

When all other factors are equal, price tends to be the deciding one.  I feel a local shop can provide a few important advantages,

1. Immediacy: walk out with the product in minutes

2. Service: recommendations, installation, tuning

3. Trying it: you can actually handle the product to check it out

Of course, they don't always provide these.  If the product isn't in stock, they have to order it, call me, and then I get to go pick it up.  If I order online, it ships to my door and saves me time.  Service?  For some things it really matters.  Getting a bike properly setup and fit is important.  Installing an accessory?  Usually less so -- especially since it is rarely free and something I can do myself.  It is easier to compare headlights online and they are trivial to install.  There are some things that you really need to check out in person: clothes, bags, helmets, and probably others.  Physical stores clearly win out here, unless of course they don't have anything in stock.  

So if people are looking for nice commuter stuff, what do they do?  You say it isn't possible for the stores to keep stuff in stock, so the store loses their only real advantages over online retailers -- with or without cost savings.  The store is reduced to a middle man for a online store.  

notoriousDUG said:

But then it makes me sad to see people buy anything online vs. a brick and mortar store.  It also makes me sad to see people shop by price and nothing else.

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Permalink Reply by nik was here on January 2, 2012 at 9:20am

Bikerumor - Amazon vs LBS by Mike Sinyard (Specialized)

Interesting article and letter the founder of Specialized wrote to his dealers.

Gives a little perspective on how the state of retail online shopping is effecting the LBS, and all retail outlets.

Watch the video. That accounts for 25% of shoppers these days whether it's an LBS, KMART, or Radio Shack. 

Remember, the letter is written to the dealers, not the customer. It is written with the purpose of how to limit the possibility of losing customers to online outlets. 

And then read the comments section, it's an entertaining continuation of this thread.

BRAIN article on Sinyard's letter

Here is another write up on BRAIN (Bicycle Retailer and Industry News)

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Permalink Reply by Zoetrope on January 2, 2012 at 10:11am

Dug, you can't even pitch in a few dollars with a one time donation to this site that you spend so much time on and benefit in various ways from, yet you have no problem haranguing others about bailing out their local bike shop when it doesn't make sense for them to do so?  Pardon my French, but what the fuck is that?

Also, despite what you may like to project, the economy is light years away from living and dying on the money that is spent at local bike shops.  And if your business is in danger of closing or hurting for customers, there are better ways to attract and keep new customers than to attempt to guilt trip people into visiting your shop out of pity.  It doesn't take someone with gray hairs on their head or who has owned a small business in the past to know this.        

Since your argument is really nothing more than a cliche, here is another one for you.  It's a dog eat dog world out there.  People will spend their money where they choose, and I think until cycling becomes a bigger part of this countries primary mode of transportation, for example, patronizing a LBS will (and maybe even should?) remain decidedly low on the average consumers list on where to spend their increasingly limited funds.  

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Permalink Reply by Lee Diamond on January 2, 2012 at 10:12am

A lot of people that see me in the last year or so have asked "What happened to you?" in large part because I haven't posted on the Chainlink much, comment rarely on forums, and generally limit my responses to those I am asked to participate in as a moderator (yes....still) of this site. I still post my events, look at forum posts, check out what else is going on and read a lot of what is happening in our community via the site.  But undoubtedly, I am less active on the Chainlink.

Here is why. 

I have done my best to avoid conflict amongst cyclists.  I have grown weary of cyclists bitching about cyclists and I have lost enthusiasm for being an internet cop.  I have done a lot of site moderating in my days and it has finally started to wear a bit thin.  Commenting on threads that I might later have to help moderate has added to this feeling, and harsh comments I have made to others have come back to haunt me by making me realize that I am part of this problem. 

Having said all that, I will offer the following.

The Chainlink is still a great website.  I still use it all the time, but I just use it differently.  It is run by someone that has done a great deal for Chicago cycling.  Julie structured the advertising to be cheaper for local companies and by way of looking at the advertising, the vast majority of the advertisers are local businesses. Rapid Transit or any local bike store that wanted similar exposure could make very moderate investments to reach their target audience by choosing to be advertisers.  In fact, the pitch of reaching thousands of cyclists in the Chicago area is pretty compelling if you are a local bicycle-based business.

From the formation of the Chainlink by Leah, Julie was always there and always involved.  It made sense that she would be the one to take it all on when Leah moved on, and I commend her for doing it.  Along the way, the Chainlink has changed and evolved, just as my use of the site has changed and evolved too.  We advertise on the site, even though we get relatively few "chainlinkers" coming to our rides beyond our hardcore followers that seem to be involved in ALL levels of Chicago cycling. 

Why?  Because the work Julie does is important, worthy of recognition and worthy of financial support. The work that has gone into building the Chainlink has been immense and the value of the site dwarfs the money she gets from it.  I like that it is free to use and join, and I support her decision to try to earn something from all of her hard work.  Rapid Transit, as a random example, has been a VERY regular user of the site to promote (for free) their workshops, specials, sales and the like, all of which would be impossible without her efforts.  If anything, it might be nice to see them do a bit of advertising to help grow their business, AND give back a bit to a business (the Chainlink) that have helped grow their business, but I digress.

Julie, thanks for everything.  Thank you for continuing your efforts on the Chainlink and your efforts to make this a welcome place for all.  Thank you for letting me be involved the ways you have, and thank you for doing what you do.  I applaud you for all of this and for creating an advertising system where it is less expensive to advertise if you are a local business.  I truly hope that more shops and vendors in Chicago will join in and do a bit of advertising themselves and I would love nothing more than for enough of them doing it to make your life more comfortable. If in the process Performance, Trek, bikesdirect.com or whomever wants to pay a premium to throw a banner ad on the site, so be it.  I'm glad the checks you will be cashing from them will be a bit bigger.

Good day.

Lee

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Permalink Reply by Joel on January 2, 2012 at 10:38am

So you work for a company that doesn't pay you enough to support this site, and the company doesn't support this site; yet you complain that the site gets support from others?  Maybe if local companies were willing to provide support they wouldn't rely on other places for it.  

But why would you or your company provide financial support for a local cycling website when you can post everything for free anyway?  

notoriousDUG said:

I don't get to decide where Rapid sends it's money and, as I said before, I would be saying this stuff regardless of me working in a shop or not.  I have been pushing local bike shops over online shops for as long as I have been a member here.

I'd like to donate here, and a lot of other places, but have you seen what they pay bike shop employees?

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