Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Molly on September 1, 2011 at 10:04am

What is unfortunate, is that we will never know how this person is doing. I suppose we don't need to know, but it would be nice.  I cannot imagine recovering from something like that.

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Permalink Reply by Dan Korn on September 1, 2011 at 1:20pm

James BlackHeron said:

The problem is that after the designers make an intersection "more safe" people will just go faster through it and use up whatever extra safety in extra speed.

 

Yes, this is the law of unintended consequences at work.  The more controlled a street is by signals and markings, the faster drivers go, making it more dangerous.  Recently there's been a trend to remove signs, markings, and even curbs from streets and intersections, forcing everyone to slow down and pay more attention.  This is sometimes called "naked streets" or "shared space".  The Dutch call it a "woonerf".  It's a bit counter-intuitive to think that taking out stop signs and lights is safer, but it works.

 

And it's not just infrastructure.  All these safety devices we put into cars, such as seatbelts and airbags, make drivers feel safer and therefore take more risks, which not only increases the danger to themselves and other vehicle occupants, offsetting much of the benefits of the safety device itself, but also greatly increases the risks to people outside the vehicle, including pedestrians, cyclists, and even drivers and passengers of other cars.  (This law of unintended consequences also applies to "the H word" for bicycles, although mainly to the cyclist himself, not so much to others.)

 

I've always said that if we want to make the roads safer, we should require all motor vehicles to have a large spike sticking out of the steering wheel, pointed at the driver's head.

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Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on September 1, 2011 at 1:35pm

Well Dan, it seems like you are channeling the deceased spirit of James BlackHeron here...

 

Only I'm not dead yet.  

 

I couldn't agree more with everything you just said.

 

If only we could make the operators of automobiles pay the real costs of their anti-social behavior of driving a car then many would not do it.  Those that DID, would be much more appreciative of what they are paying for and not squander what they have purchased.    As it is now, government-infrastructure shifts the costs to other parties and in such a way that most drivers dont' really understand how expensive it is to drive.  Insurance shifts costs so all drivers pay for the misdeeds of the worst drivers, and nobody really thinks about the consequences of messing up.

 

I'm not as anti-car as you are Dan, but I think those that choose to operate them pay for their costs upfront instead of shifting those costs onto others or having it subsidized by government programs.

 

If the real costs were born by the drivers most people would just not be able to afford it, and the market would fix the problem we have with all these cars zooming everywhere piloted by half-asleep morons who aren't cognizant just how much danger they are putting other people into. 

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Markus on September 1, 2011 at 2:28pm

An excellent arguement, however in this country the ability to transport ourselves has become synonymous with freedom. As with other facets of social life the true meaning and responsibilities of daily life has been obscured by the speed and opportunities we have become dependent upon to live our day to day existance.

As the economic and personal layers of life in our USA (and even if we don't always like it it is OUR USA) have buried our ability to cope we have created the financial and social 'insurance' to allow us not to be taken down by the weight (both emotionally and financially) of the deep well of effluent of the life we have created.

At this level of human experiance we have a sincere and desperate need to find a way to grow beyond the limitations of our emotional and social past in order to develope the construct that will allow us to become the next evolutionary phase of the species...

Until then we got's ta deal with what we got...and it ain't pretty but if we take "baby steps" in our own lives and communicate the positive attitudes to as many others as possible the effect may snowball into the good we know we must reach.

Jeff

The Chicagoan

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Permalink Reply by Angela Dean on September 1, 2011 at 3:38pm

Not to sound like an insensitive jerk, but as a daily driver/car mechanic/cyclist, there are many ways to loose control of a car or a bike. Unless the driver purposefully loss control and aimed for the bikers I'm sure they didn'twant to harm anyone. I've been in a deadly accident and spent days in the icu, and I know the driver was not being malicious. Try to hope for a speedy recovery for those injured instead of placing blame. Neither drivers or cyclists are trained on the rules of sharing the road with one another. I've almost been hit by bikes on the sidewalk! Who's to blame when my ankles broken and I can't work?! Who will care for my kid? With out training, everyone losses and noone learns.

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Permalink Reply by chixieonfixie on September 2, 2011 at 3:56am

Yes there is much talk of 'the right to do [xyz]' in this country but rarely do you hear mention of 'the responsiblity to do [xyz]'.  US inhabitants like to speed, consume too much, talk too loudly and generally annoy others in our own country and especially in other countries, thats what we're known for worldwide. The only thing we like small is our cell phones. 

This sense of entitlement within our culture leaves little room for personal responsibility when operating motorized vehicles in a car-centric culture, however you see the same behavior from cyclists who will blow past you unsafely. Everyone has the opportunity to be safe each day.  Arrive alive.

 

Jason W said:

Actually driving is practically a right in this country. Politicians talk big talk when they say driving is a privilege (like when they try and rack up votes talking about DUI etc…), but it really is considered more of a right. If you compare attitudes about driving in other countries to this one, it really is different. Take Germany for example. It’s hard to get a license there. If you aren’t a half decent driver you just don’t get to drive. You have much more extensive driving classes. You can get a ticket for not driving in the center of your lane. They don’t even like cup holders in their cars over there, because they don’t understand why you would want to drink (non alcoholic beverages) and drive. When you are driving, you are driving! Over here, any dumbass gets a license. The hardest thing you may be asked to do it parallel park, which is about the least dangerous thing someone has to do in a car. Then the idiot who can barely parallel park jumps behind the whell, straps their seat belt (instant forgiveness for all sins) and goes 80 mph down the freeway, which they really have never been trained to do. But, hey, if they kill someone it's all good. It's their right to drive! (as long as they aren't drunk)

Jason Kim said:

"The right to go as fast as possible"?  Driving in the state of Illinois is a privilege not a right.  So nobody has the right/privilege to speed considering the consequences.  An innocent person laying the the hospital in critical condition because somebody felt they had "the right to go as fast as possible". 

Adam "Cezar" Jenkins said:

The right to go as fast as possible is engrained in people. Even in those I would call friends or loved ones are guilty of it. Even I use to be guilty of it before I became involved in cycling.

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Permalink Reply by Jason W on September 2, 2011 at 4:44am

You don't have to intentionally run someone down to be way out of line. They flipped a car in a 25mph speed zone (the standard in the city unless otherwise posted). Let be realistic, they were driving extremely recklessly and almost killed someone. Do not make excuses for their inexcusable behavior. This is not an accident. It should be charged as criminal behavior.

 

And you almost got hit by a bike? Pllleeeaassssseeee.........  That analogy is not even close. Do you actually ride a bike in this city with any regularity? I doubt you wouldn't be saying what you are if you did...

 

Angela Dean said:

Not to sound like an insensitive jerk, but as a daily driver/car mechanic/cyclist, there are many ways to loose control of a car or a bike. Unless the driver purposefully loss control and aimed for the bikers I'm sure they didn'twant to harm anyone. I've been in a deadly accident and spent days in the icu, and I know the driver was not being malicious. Try to hope for a speedy recovery for those injured instead of placing blame. Neither drivers or cyclists are trained on the rules of sharing the road with one another. I've almost been hit by bikes on the sidewalk! Who's to blame when my ankles broken and I can't work?! Who will care for my kid? With out training, everyone losses and noone learns.

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Permalink Reply by Angela Dean on September 2, 2011 at 6:16am

I do ride very often in the city, and next time your walking along a city street and a cyclists brakes the law by going the wrong way on a one way, riding on the sidewalk, or blowing a stop sign and and crashes into you and your child, then we can talk buddy! And since you don't know me, saying you doubt I ride in the city just shows what a problem there is with stupidity in this country. Your no better then anyone else because you can't drive/ afford a car!

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Permalink Reply by Jason W on September 2, 2011 at 6:38am

I knew I was right about you. Two posts in this forum. Defending some maniac who flipped a car in a neighborhood. The "Won't someone think of the children?!?!?!" BS. Vague about how much you actually ride a bike in this city. Now assuming I don't have a car (I do). What are you doing here? I think you may be more comfortable here:

 

http://www.chicagoroadraginidiots.com/

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Permalink Reply by Angela Dean on September 2, 2011 at 1:39pm

I think shit happens, and again, bikers have the same responsibilities as cars. It's "share" the road. If you weren't so high on your horse, you'd realize other countries don't have these problems because they work together. Not get overly defensive about other peoples opinions. I never post here because some of you are childish and have no clue past there misconceptions. As I stated before, I doubt the cyclists wad an intended target. Oh, I've been cycling in Chicago for 15 years, Dick.

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Permalink Reply by Angela Dean on September 2, 2011 at 1:44pm

Like I said, I'm sure the person didn't intend to flip a car on a cyclists or pedestrian or anyone, and to have people put up another "anti car" post annoys the heck out of me. That's all. Be safe.


Daniel G said:

Angela Dean, you have a unique way of seeing things, to be sure. It's true that we don't yet know who is at fault here. But we know who is probably at fault, and we definitely know who was going way too god-damned fast to not flip their Toyota on a minor city street. You feel like folks are rushing to blame the driver, but there are pretty good reasons for that. If you want to press the point that "OMG BIKES CAN HURT PPL TOO!", (a truth acknowledged and restated here many hundreds of times), almost every other thread would be a better venue than this one.

h' said:

I've dropped a line to a few reporters to see if there's any way to get some follow-up here.

Oh, good. It's not good to know so little about this catastrophic an accident.



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Permalink Reply by Carly on September 3, 2011 at 1:42am

Of course the driver of the motor vehicle did not intend to hurt the cyclist.  The driver did not say to herself, "there's an easy one to knock out".  However, all drivers of all motor vehicles should handle their cars the same way they would handle a loaded gun- with EXTREME caution (because both are just as highly accident prone).  Cars are deadly.  Imagine if a crowded jumbo jet crashed and killed everyone on board every single week for 52 weeks- that's how many people cars kill every year.  (I read that info out of a book called "the art of urban cycling").  Someone pressed the gas pedal down farther than it should've gone, Angela.  Someone made a decision to cheat the rules.  Unless this is a freak case of the car driving itself, it is the handler of the car that is to be put into question.      

Angela Dean said:

Like I said, I'm sure the person didn't intend to flip a car on a cyclists or pedestrian or anyone, and to have people put up another "anti car" post annoys the heck out of me. That's all. Be safe.


Daniel G said:

Angela Dean, you have a unique way of seeing things, to be sure. It's true that we don't yet know who is at fault here. But we know who is probably at fault, and we definitely know who was going way too god-damned fast to not flip their Toyota on a minor city street. You feel like folks are rushing to blame the driver, but there are pretty good reasons for that. If you want to press the point that "OMG BIKES CAN HURT PPL TOO!", (a truth acknowledged and restated here many hundreds of times), almost every other thread would be a better venue than this one.

h' said:

I've dropped a line to a few reporters to see if there's any way to get some follow-up here.

Oh, good. It's not good to know so little about this catastrophic an accident.



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