The Chainlink

...."Why isn't daley sucking up to Schwinn to build a factory, do we need more stores to sell cheap crap?"

OK I was on another discussion and I'm wondering...

 

Is any one else bothered by the big deal made about wallmart coming to Chicago, when what we really need is GOOD long term jobs here....

 

Why isn't daley trying to bring back at least SOME manufacturing here? I mean with so many people unemployed the cost of labour MUST be down, I know Schwinn is nothing more than a name BUT there must be some companies that would be willing to try, also since the price of land is down....How about SRAM? they are headquartered here.

 

So are we just a bunch of blind sheep that want our kids to play with lead painted toys from China because they are a buck? Or is anyone willing to pay more to have a non lead painted toy?

 

Isn't there a big drywall company with offices here in Chicago ? Why did China drywall show up in the south east with mystery stuff in it that MAY be toxic ?

 

I just think it's time for a real change

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Permalink Reply by milesperhour on August 12, 2010 at 9:17pm
Easy there, killer. The post was in regards to someone saying that everyone should go to college and get a real job, at which i noted college isn't exactly affordable for all. Someone then said there are great city colleges. For those who plan to get those "real jobs," they would eventually haven't to finish up the BA somewhere.

I'm not knocking those with an AA. Heck, I went to community college myself. I'm sure you can get some great jobs in certain lines of work with only an AA, but in general with an AA degree, you must finish the last two years at a university. My point was more that college is unaffordable and at some point that person with an AA will eventually have to pay high tuition costs to finish and get a BA and a "real" job.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:
Right, because experience isn't worth anything. Oh, wait, I have an AA, and am making some pretty decent money (and just got a raise after 3 months.)

And then of course, there's my friend who didn't go beyond high school. What's he do? He manages about 70 web servers for major power tool companies.

But I guess none of this matters because "You can only get so far with an AA."

milesperhour said:
Are you talking about community colleges or the universities? You can only get so far with an AA.
Ace Mann said:
The local city college here in the Chicago area are some of the most affordable and high quality in the midwest area.

milesperhour said:
not to mention how "affordable" college is!
Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on August 12, 2010 at 9:35pm
I'm reasonably sure that I have a 'real job' and I have NO degree.

The idea that a BA or higher is required to make a decent living is not only stupid and elitist but one of the major reasons we are in a huge labor crunch when it comes to skilled trades; all of the smart and skilled people who should be out there making things work have been suckered into thinking an education is going to provide for them.

This is a fact.

milesperhour said:
Easy there, killer. The post was in regards to someone saying that everyone should go to college and get a real job, at which i noted college isn't exactly affordable for all. Someone then said there are great city colleges. For those who plan to get those "real jobs," they would eventually haven't to finish up the BA somewhere.

I'm not knocking those with an AA. Heck, I went to community college myself. I'm sure you can get some great jobs in certain lines of work with only an AA, but in general with an AA degree, you must finish the last two years at a university. My point was more that college is unaffordable and at some point that person with an AA will eventually have to pay high tuition costs to finish and get a BA and a "real" job.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:
Right, because experience isn't worth anything. Oh, wait, I have an AA, and am making some pretty decent money (and just got a raise after 3 months.)

And then of course, there's my friend who didn't go beyond high school. What's he do? He manages about 70 web servers for major power tool companies.

But I guess none of this matters because "You can only get so far with an AA."

milesperhour said:
Are you talking about community colleges or the universities? You can only get so far with an AA.
Ace Mann said:
The local city college here in the Chicago area are some of the most affordable and high quality in the midwest area.

milesperhour said:
not to mention how "affordable" college is!
Permalink Reply by milesperhour on August 12, 2010 at 9:52pm
I'm not disagreeing with you. I wasn't the one who said that a) everyone should go to college for real careers nor b) that college is affordable.

However, those who have higher degrees do typically make more money. Can those without higher degrees be just as smart and successful? Absolutely. I'm not arguing whether it's necessary or not. The education I received while earning my BA was pathetic at best (I received a far superior education at community college), but I have that piece of paper and because of it, I earn more money. Also, all things the same most employers would hire the candidate with a degree versus one without.


notoriousDUG said:
I'm reasonably sure that I have a 'real job' and I have NO degree.

The idea that a BA or higher is required to make a decent living is not only stupid and elitist but one of the major reasons we are in a huge labor crunch when it comes to skilled trades; all of the smart and skilled people who should be out there making things work have been suckered into thinking an education is going to provide for them.

This is a fact.

milesperhour said:
Easy there, killer. The post was in regards to someone saying that everyone should go to college and get a real job, at which i noted college isn't exactly affordable for all. Someone then said there are great city colleges. For those who plan to get those "real jobs," they would eventually haven't to finish up the BA somewhere.

I'm not knocking those with an AA. Heck, I went to community college myself. I'm sure you can get some great jobs in certain lines of work with only an AA, but in general with an AA degree, you must finish the last two years at a university. My point was more that college is unaffordable and at some point that person with an AA will eventually have to pay high tuition costs to finish and get a BA and a "real" job.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:
Right, because experience isn't worth anything. Oh, wait, I have an AA, and am making some pretty decent money (and just got a raise after 3 months.)

And then of course, there's my friend who didn't go beyond high school. What's he do? He manages about 70 web servers for major power tool companies.

But I guess none of this matters because "You can only get so far with an AA."

milesperhour said:
Are you talking about community colleges or the universities? You can only get so far with an AA.
Ace Mann said:
The local city college here in the Chicago area are some of the most affordable and high quality in the midwest area.

milesperhour said:
not to mention how "affordable" college is!
Permalink Reply by Maria Boustead on August 12, 2010 at 11:51pm
Okay, I got into this conversation a little late, but we manufacture locally in Chicago. Not downtown, but pretty darn close - just 5 miles SE in Lawndale. We make bike bags, so we manufacture in the cut-and-sew industry, probably one of the most labor intensive, least automated industries possible. So, it IS possible to manufacture in Chicago. While our prices may be higher than our competition that produces in China, it is on par with handbags of our level of quality and design intent. You know the adage about how much more money stays in the community when you buy from a local store rather than a chain store, right? Well, imagine the impact of buying from a local manufacturer rather than an oversea manufacturer. It's also pretty powerful to be able to bike down to our production facility in less than 30 minutes and meet with the people helping us bring our designs to life.

Furthermore, I completely agree with what Rick said earlier, that factories employ all sorts of people. Sure, some of the jobs are repetitive, but I've held white-collar jobs for 15 years and believe me all that email and paperwork is pretty repetitive too. Some people enjoy working with their hands instead of composing email all day and I find it incredibly arrogant to suggest they go to college to get a degree and a "real" job.

By the way, I just posted a video about a bike ride to where our products are made. You can check it out here.
Permalink Reply by Michael Perz on August 13, 2010 at 9:28am
I'm probably going to come off as a confrontational grouch by saying this, but that "adage" is nothing more than disingenuous marketing hype designed to tug at the heartstrings. By the very same logic it would be even more beneficial to simply not buy the product in the first place. Imagine how much more money stays in the community if it never leaves my bank account!


Maria Boustead said:
You know the adage about how much more money stays in the community when you buy from a local store rather than a chain store, right? Well, imagine the impact of buying from a local manufacturer rather than an oversea manufacturer.
Permalink Reply by Rick norris on August 13, 2010 at 11:05am
I got bored with listening to how I never been in a factory....
SO I guess I never worked in a shop and built equipment, that I later installed and set up.
I agree I show my age when I talk about manual equipment, no I'm not so old that manual stuff was used in production, but it was in tool rooms and prototype, now I guess it's common for CNC.

Calling me out on my lack of knowledge on opening a factory is no big deal I never said I KNEW HOW. I also never said manufacturing had to be a large operation, plants can employ a couple of people to thousands.

What pisses me off is why is such a big deal being made about low end retail jobs, by a company that isn't exactly known for treating it's employes the greatest? When there are plenty of people here that could MAKE something and produce a real income not only for the employee but for the area.

Retail (IMO) is what gets manufactured goods to the consumer and a needed service.

Manufacturing buys raw materials (from many different places, yes even other countries, contributing to the economy in other areas) Those materials are transported in (jobs for truckers, RR people, aircraft...)
Turned into a final product (thats the factory) Shipped out (more trucks and such....) to local and other countrys (bringing other money back into the area)

As far as I can see retail imports the product, (still involving transportation) then sells the product locally. The money does flow back in fourthm but in a much more limited way.

Because manufacturing GENERALLY....notice I said generally because just like retail there are good places to work and crappy places. When people have more money they can spend more money in their community. Yes even on housing, WITH sensable mortgages.

I BELIEVE and this is my idea, that the time for manufacturing to make a return as a viable source of income is a lot sooner than people think.
I BELIEVE that people need to get off their ass and do some reall labour with their hands, not wait for obamanomics to get then a bail out so they can go to school and learn to re-package loans.
I BELIEVE bringing jobs (like manufacturing) closer to people will help with cutting down pollution from shipping....many people make this claim with farming buy local because of shipping costs (Your right I DONT have an understanding of the complex things involved that allows asperigus from Peru to be sold in the Jewel around the corner from me)

I BELIEVE I am once again bored with this, I did 50+ miles yesterday, and am heading out for a ride now...


notoriousDUG said:
You're bored with it because you want to simplify an complex issue to the degree that it fits your own narrow view of the subject and have been called out on your lack of knowledge.

to be honest with you the job future is going to be in the skilled trades but that is a whole other discussion and is going to require a lot of changes in or cultural views of what is, and is not, a 'good' job.

There may also be a time when large scale manufacturing is a viable enterprise in the US but it will take a lot of changes to not only our economic models but also out cultural models. Right now small scale and boutique manufacturing is where we need to look to in my opinion.

Rick norris said:
Permalink Reply by Rick norris on August 13, 2010 at 11:26am
This is what I'm talking about....

I hope that one day you can expande your product line so guys....well, you know guys like me that don't carry purses with flowers and such on them...could use.

Maria Boustead said:
Okay, I got into this conversation a little late, but we manufacture locally in Chicago. Not downtown, but pretty darn close - just 5 miles SE in Lawndale. We make bike bags, so we manufacture in the cut-and-sew industry, probably one of the most labor intensive, least automated industries possible. So, it IS possible to manufacture in Chicago. While our prices may be higher than our competition that produces in China, it is on par with handbags of our level of quality and design intent. You know the adage about how much more money stays in the community when you buy from a local store rather than a chain store, right? Well, imagine the impact of buying from a local manufacturer rather than an oversea manufacturer. It's also pretty powerful to be able to bike down to our production facility in less than 30 minutes and meet with the people helping us bring our designs to life.

Furthermore, I completely agree with what Rick said earlier, that factories employ all sorts of people. Sure, some of the jobs are repetitive, but I've held white-collar jobs for 15 years and believe me all that email and paperwork is pretty repetitive too. Some people enjoy working with their hands instead of composing email all day and I find it incredibly arrogant to suggest they go to college to get a degree and a "real" job.

By the way, I just posted a video about a bike ride to where our products are made. You can check it out here.
Permalink Reply by Maria Boustead on August 13, 2010 at 11:56am
I disagree that it is just hype. There are have been several research studies that compare how far money travels when you buy from a chain store compared to a local store. Here are two for reference: Andersonville study and Midcoast Study. Also, circulating currency makes for a healthier economy because it means that things and services are being bought and sold and there are jobs attached to each of those interactions.

Beyond studies, it makes sense. Let's say you buy a $100 item from Target in Chicago. Probably about $20 stays in Chicago to pay for the overhead of having a store here, while $50 goes to China to pay for the item and the rest goes to Target HQ in Minneapolis to spend on HQ overhead and for buying more things from China. In comparison, if you buy $100 Po Campo bag from a Chicago store, the store keeps $50 and spends it on its overhead and buying more local product, while we get the other $50 and give it to Chicagoans to pay for their wages. There IS a difference.

Michael Perz said:
I'm probably going to come off as a confrontational grouch by saying this, but that "adage" is nothing more than disingenuous marketing hype designed to tug at the heartstrings. By the very same logic it would be even more beneficial to simply not buy the product in the first place. Imagine how much more money stays in the community if it never leaves my bank account!
Maria Boustead said:
You know the adage about how much more money stays in the community when you buy from a local store rather than a chain store, right? Well, imagine the impact of buying from a local manufacturer rather than an oversea manufacturer.
Permalink Reply by J on August 13, 2010 at 12:36pm
This is a perennial topic in cycling message boards, and really not unique to Chicago and it's a question I get a lot where I work because we focus strictly on custom bikes.

Without taking a political stand on the issue of domestic production, I'll say this: the average person can't do anything to reverse the trend of outsourcing in the bicycle industry. But you can put your money where your mouth is, and buy products like Po Campo bags, Owen Lloyd frames (among many many others), Wound Up forks, Phil Wood/White Industries/Chris King hubs, Thomson stems, Park Tools, and all varieties of cycling apparel, etc.
Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on August 13, 2010 at 12:56pm
I'm not arguing that manufacturing jobs are good and would be a boon to the economy and I don't think anyone else here is either.

I think there are a few major issues where this whole thing is getting derailed:

1) You are polluting the discussion with your hate of retail jobs, box stores and such. Every time people point out the issues with bringing the jobs here you just respond that the jobs are better and needed... I'm not disagreeing with these things but they have nothing to do with the whole concept of bringing manufacturing jobs into Chicago, or the US in general. You, me and everyone else can stand on our roof screaming about how much better manufacturing jobs are over retail and it IS a viable argument in favor of creating those jobs but it is not going to make it happen and is a moot point in this discussion.

2) You are trying to lobby for the creation of industry and jobs that you do not understand which makes it hard for you to see the needs of a large manufacturer and that makes it almost impossible for you to understand what would be an incentive for them to move to Chicago or to see the things that keep them away.

3) You started off talking about large scale manufacturing and have now scaled it back to small scale manufacturing which is an apples to oranges comparison not just in the needs of the company but also on the impact that it has on the community...


Rick norris said:
I got bored with listening to how I never been in a factory....
SO I guess I never worked in a shop and built equipment, that I later installed and set up.
I agree I show my age when I talk about manual equipment, no I'm not so old that manual stuff was used in production, but it was in tool rooms and prototype, now I guess it's common for CNC.

Calling me out on my lack of knowledge on opening a factory is no big deal I never said I KNEW HOW. I also never said manufacturing had to be a large operation, plants can employ a couple of people to thousands.

What pisses me off is why is such a big deal being made about low end retail jobs, by a company that isn't exactly known for treating it's employes the greatest? When there are plenty of people here that could MAKE something and produce a real income not only for the employee but for the area.

Retail (IMO) is what gets manufactured goods to the consumer and a needed service.

Manufacturing buys raw materials (from many different places, yes even other countries, contributing to the economy in other areas) Those materials are transported in (jobs for truckers, RR people, aircraft...)
Turned into a final product (thats the factory) Shipped out (more trucks and such....) to local and other countrys (bringing other money back into the area)

As far as I can see retail imports the product, (still involving transportation) then sells the product locally. The money does flow back in fourthm but in a much more limited way.

Because manufacturing GENERALLY....notice I said generally because just like retail there are good places to work and crappy places. When people have more money they can spend more money in their community. Yes even on housing, WITH sensable mortgages.

I BELIEVE and this is my idea, that the time for manufacturing to make a return as a viable source of income is a lot sooner than people think.
I BELIEVE that people need to get off their ass and do some reall labour with their hands, not wait for obamanomics to get then a bail out so they can go to school and learn to re-package loans.
I BELIEVE bringing jobs (like manufacturing) closer to people will help with cutting down pollution from shipping....many people make this claim with farming buy local because of shipping costs (Your right I DONT have an understanding of the complex things involved that allows asperigus from Peru to be sold in the Jewel around the corner from me)

I BELIEVE I am once again bored with this, I did 50+ miles yesterday, and am heading out for a ride now...


notoriousDUG said:
You're bored with it because you want to simplify an complex issue to the degree that it fits your own narrow view of the subject and have been called out on your lack of knowledge.

to be honest with you the job future is going to be in the skilled trades but that is a whole other discussion and is going to require a lot of changes in or cultural views of what is, and is not, a 'good' job.

There may also be a time when large scale manufacturing is a viable enterprise in the US but it will take a lot of changes to not only our economic models but also out cultural models. Right now small scale and boutique manufacturing is where we need to look to in my opinion.

Rick norris said:
Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on August 13, 2010 at 1:07pm
I'm sorry but this is a really, really sloppy rationalization using completely made up numbers and I think it is not a very good representation of where the money goes. I'm not going to deny that buying locally made items in a local shop probably keeps more of each dollar spent in the local economy but I highly doubt the disparity is anywhere near what you are making it out to be.

I mean you double dipped wages in the local example; these are part of overhead. You did not account for the extra cost Target has of shipping stuff around and you are also sort of ignoring the fact that a bag sold at a local shop like Boulevard needs a much larger percentage of it's sales price put into overhead because the lower volume sold.

Maria Boustead said:
Beyond studies, it makes sense. Let's say you buy a $100 item from Target in Chicago. Probably about $20 stays in Chicago to pay for the overhead of having a store here, while $50 goes to China to pay for the item and the rest goes to Target HQ in Minneapolis to spend on HQ overhead and for buying more things from China. In comparison, if you buy $100 Po Campo bag from a Chicago store, the store keeps $50 and spends it on its overhead and buying more local product, while we get the other $50 and give it to Chicagoans to pay for their wages. There IS a difference.

Permalink Reply by Michael Perz on August 13, 2010 at 1:20pm
If I could still edit my post I'd change it to emphasize disingenuous. That mantra, however dolled up and fuzzyfied it may be, is nothing more than ol' timey nativism and a nod to the us-versus-them sentiment.



Maria Boustead said:
I disagree that it is just hype. There are have been several research studies that compare how far money travels when you buy from a chain store compared to a local store. Here are two for reference: Andersonville study and Midcoast Study. Also, circulating currency makes for a healthier economy because it means that things and services are being bought and sold and there are jobs attached to each of those interactions.

Beyond studies, it makes sense. Let's say you buy a $100 item from Target in Chicago. Probably about $20 stays in Chicago to pay for the overhead of having a store here, while $50 goes to China to pay for the item and the rest goes to Target HQ in Minneapolis to spend on HQ overhead and for buying more things from China. In comparison, if you buy $100 Po Campo bag from a Chicago store, the store keeps $50 and spends it on its overhead and buying more local product, while we get the other $50 and give it to Chicagoans to pay for their wages. There IS a difference.

Michael Perz said:
I'm probably going to come off as a confrontational grouch by saying this, but that "adage" is nothing more than disingenuous marketing hype designed to tug at the heartstrings. By the very same logic it would be even more beneficial to simply not buy the product in the first place. Imagine how much more money stays in the community if it never leaves my bank account!
Maria Boustead said:
You know the adage about how much more money stays in the community when you buy from a local store rather than a chain store, right? Well, imagine the impact of buying from a local manufacturer rather than an oversea manufacturer.

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