Done hating? Join cwlcatcwlt today!
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A group that understands we have all erred. We have all been judgmental or harsh or critical or unfair to our fellow cyclists, and that there is a better way forward. You don't have to be perfect to join, but you should be committed to trying harder. A group that seeks to find ways where our common ground allows for some unity, and our unity creates power and numbers that advances our common goals.
Come and join Cyclists Who Love Cyclists and the Cyclists Who Love Them today, and help stop the hating. It's time for a whole lot of bike love, and a little bit of unity.
Views: 163
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Zomboogz on
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Nice enough. Honestly I liked reading some of those arguments posted. Just thought it was weird that H3N3 called out that poster on something she / he said in a thread a few pages back. I get that H3N3 has been here a lot longer than I but was my "passive aggressive" move really worst than his blatant - off-topic attack of that poster? If it was, I apologize. To you, Howard, and the OP for jacking his / her thread.
High ground. I never been up there. Just gave my opinion, biased by the comments he made.
Thank you for your reply.
notoriousDUG said:As much as it actually pains me to defend someone I am going to have to stand up for Howard here; you pulled a very passive aggressive move singling out, and chastising, Howard for being mean in a thread about how we should all be getting along in the thread about how we should all get along
but want to hold the moral high ground and I have to call shenanigans on that.
Mind you I, obviously, have no issue with calling people out; just don't try to act as if you hold the high ground.
Did I do this nice enough?
I swear I am not intentionally trying to derail the 'be nice' thread.
Really.
conleyri said:Read it as you like. Have a good night Howard.
H3N3 said:So you dredged this up here specifically to bait me?
Big of you to admit that, at least, but heretoforth your "my ____ doesn't stink" act is not going to be terribly convincing.
Richard T. Conley said:It was, very much so, directed squarely at you. And as I thought you would, you took the opportunity throw some sparks at the gas can. I don't know you Howard, but this is my perception of you based off of the text I read under posts with your name. I don't see you outside of these forums. Am I to blame because of what you represent in your own posts?
Ill take that. I wont help you set this thread on fire as well. That's my last 2 cents.
H3N3 said:The comment was directed squarely at me, Jera Sue--
I'll speak up for myself, and would respect your right to speak up for yourself as well.
Yes, sometimes, when others are passionate about something, or react strongly because their position or views are being trivialized or marginalized, it's possible that you don't
"see the point" because what's important to them is less important to you. Jera Sue said:People do get quite scrappy here, and I think that it's appropriate that one of the scrappiest be the one to pick up on this comment. I agree with you much of the time, Howard, but it's abrasiveness like yours and of others here that keeps me off the forums much of the time.
I'm not thin-skinned... I just don't see the point. Maybe that's my problem. H3N3 said: This is inaccurate from start to finish, and quite obviously colored by your own bias. But it's a great illustration of the problem with this thread-- if you aren't specific about who or what you're reacting to, the wrong people are going to think it's about them, and as we see here the people who can't seem to post anything at all without provoking or baiting another member are going to think it's about the "other guy" and high-five you for the perceived validation.
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Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on
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OK, but I'm not hugging anyone.
Ever.
I gots an image to maintain.
conleyri said:Nice enough. Honestly I liked reading some of those arguments posted. Just thought it was weird that H3N3 called out that poster on something she / he said in a thread a few pages back. I get that H3N3 has been here a lot longer than I but was my "passive aggressive" move really worst than his blatant - off-topic attack of that poster? If it was, I apologize. To you, Howard, and the OP for jacking his / her thread.
High ground. I never been up there. Just gave my opinion, biased by the comments he made.
Thank you for your reply.
notoriousDUG said:As much as it actually pains me to defend someone I am going to have to stand up for Howard here; you pulled a very passive aggressive move singling out, and chastising, Howard for being mean in a thread about how we should all be getting along in the thread about how we should all get along
but want to hold the moral high ground and I have to call shenanigans on that.
Mind you I, obviously, have no issue with calling people out; just don't try to act as if you hold the high ground.
Did I do this nice enough?
I swear I am not intentionally trying to derail the 'be nice' thread.
Really.
conleyri said:Read it as you like. Have a good night Howard.
H3N3 said:So you dredged this up here specifically to bait me?
Big of you to admit that, at least, but heretoforth your "my ____ doesn't stink" act is not going to be terribly convincing.
Richard T. Conley said:It was, very much so, directed squarely at you. And as I thought you would, you took the opportunity throw some sparks at the gas can. I don't know you Howard, but this is my perception of you based off of the text I read under posts with your name. I don't see you outside of these forums. Am I to blame because of what you represent in your own posts?
Ill take that. I wont help you set this thread on fire as well. That's my last 2 cents.
H3N3 said:The comment was directed squarely at me, Jera Sue--
I'll speak up for myself, and would respect your right to speak up for yourself as well.
Yes, sometimes, when others are passionate about something, or react strongly because their position or views are being trivialized or marginalized, it's possible that you don't
"see the point" because what's important to them is less important to you. Jera Sue said:People do get quite scrappy here, and I think that it's appropriate that one of the scrappiest be the one to pick up on this comment. I agree with you much of the time, Howard, but it's abrasiveness like yours and of others here that keeps me off the forums much of the time.
I'm not thin-skinned... I just don't see the point. Maybe that's my problem. H3N3 said: This is inaccurate from start to finish, and quite obviously colored by your own bias. But it's a great illustration of the problem with this thread-- if you aren't specific about who or what you're reacting to, the wrong people are going to think it's about them, and as we see here the people who can't seem to post anything at all without provoking or baiting another member are going to think it's about the "other guy" and high-five you for the perceived validation.
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Word. Once again sorry for the misunderstanding. Night. Oh and Lee, I joined up with your group. Sorry for hijacking your thread.
H3N3 said:Richard T.,
I accept your apology and was ready to walk away, but I guess I need to say it again-- your assessment of what happened in this scenario you keep bringing up is not accurate-- what you're not seeing is the time frame in which posts to that thread, the initiating of the related thread, and the initiating of this thread took place and how they relate to each-other; it's understandable that you're not going to monitor this forum 24/7 but sometimes when things don't quite add up for you it's because you may not know what you don't know-- you can always ask a clarifying question when that happens, rather than present a maximally pessimistic potential scenario (i.e. I got mad at someone for absolutely no reason so I went looking for other posts of theirs to attack) as fact, repeatedly.
Some questions you could ask:
-"why did that post upset you so much? Is there something here I missed?"
-"what do I need to know about this person to understand why this issue that seems so trivial to me is seemingly so important to him?
-"why is this bleeding over into this other thread? Is this person a psychotic cyber-stalker or is there some other explanation?"
Some places you could ask them:
-personal message
-on the thread in which the inexplicable scenario played out
-on a new thread
-by phone: 773/710-4143
Very sorry this is playing out on Lee's thread-- any chance we can give it a rest? I.e. everyone?
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Permalink Reply by Jera Sue on
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H3N3 said:Some questions you could ask:
-"why did that post upset you so much? Is there something here I missed?"
-"what do I need to know about this person to understand why this issue that seems so trivial to me is seemingly so important to him?
I don't think that this is an extremely inappropriate place to have this conversation (unless Lee does, in which case, I apologize), but where else can I ask my questions, like:
In the event that someone says something that pisses someone else off and that someone else says something mean or abrasive... why is it the responsibility of the first guy to approach that other guy (or gal, forgive me) with kindness?
Maaaaybe the first guy could have been less ignorant, but ignorance is relative. We all have our very own unique world view. I've said some careless things and have been called out on them, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong...
Bottom line, though... if I say something that pisses someone off, and they bite my head off, it's not my responsibility to make nice. Why isn't it the responsibility of everyone to be respectful to begin with?
Again, I'm not trying to stir stuff up. Just asking a genuine question.
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I vote for psychotic cyber-stalker.
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Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on
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It's a shame that the original poster of threads can't delete replies that are made because this thread needs a major cleaning.
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this statement reeks of intolerance.
Why, Ryan, can't you just get along?
Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:It's a shame that the original poster of threads can't delete replies that are made because this thread needs a major cleaning.
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Hahaha, so I should go all double-agent on this thread?
notoriousDUG said:this statement reeks of intolerance.
Why, Ryan, can't you just get along?
Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:It's a shame that the original poster of threads can't delete replies that are made because this thread needs a major cleaning.
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I still think it's better that people all respect each other in the first place instead of posting guidelines for disaster recovery once someone's already been attacked. But yes, I suppose if someone really wants to know why they were engaged in a flame war, they could just ask.
There are people here who could be a bit more subtle about their utter disgust at another person's opinion on a matter. It's off-putting.
The thread was about respecting your fellow cyclists (or about a group about respecting your fellow cyclists), and that's what we're talking about. Relationships take work! :)
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Permalink Reply by Duppie on
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Lee,
I can see that if you berate people in private they might get upset. It is easy to feel as if you are singled out, especially since the poster doesn't know whether you berated anybody else.
I think that consistently applied moderation is a good idea. Maybe instead of dealing with it in private way via PM, deal with it openly, by deleting posts that are just personal attacks or filled with profanity and replacing it with a message stating it got deleted by a moderator and why. If the poster doesn't agree with that he is free to go elsewhere and spout his personal attacks and profanity.
But I take that it is not the direction you guys have taken.
Lee Diamond said:Hey Duppie,
I am still a moderator. Overall, the goal of moderators since I have been one seems to be to have a pretty light-touch. I don't disagree with that, and there are lots of times we discuss postings, and there are times we reach out to individuals, or give them "strikes" or suspend them and even ban them. The funny thing is that, our light touch is portrayed as diabolical censorship and interference and hostility and every other thing you can imagine on the occassions when it is used. Classic damned if you do damned if you don't scenarios over and over, so it is a bit of a winder that doesn't seem to let up.
I also think it goes beyond the Chainlink, as the Chainlink is just the online manifestation of what it is talking about, namely a bicycling community. I've been in numerous social settings over the course of the last few years where the constant theme of conversation is similar amongst the cyclists....exasperation with other cyclists and a laundry list of complaints about how other people cycle.
I say this having recognized it in myself as I grew tired of it. It is kind of easy to think of someone else as part of the problem when you catch them being part of the problem, but what about when you catch yourself doing it?
I am not a fan of the yelling-screaming-way of doing things that we have have degenerated into, as a society, so again, that is just the bicycling community representing a bad progression. I think this group could be what you describe, but that wasn't my intent. I don't mind it turning into anything positive at all, or even nothing. it is just the internets.
i like the idea that it might be a place where ideas are discussed that bring us together though, which I think would be good. It would be nice to talk about constructive ways of talking to others. I think there are ways you can do outreach that people are receptive to, and then ways that get their dander up and shut down your hopes of reaching them. Maybe we could discuss ways to do that....like if you want to get people to lock up better, how do you educate them without them thinking of you as preaching at them, and shutting down? Same thing with any topic....wearing a helmet, being safe, etc.
Part of the creation of this group is just because it seemed like a way to bring the topic itself to the forum. Plus I had to show off my mad art skillz.
Cheers - Lee
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Permalink Reply by Lee Diamond on
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Actually, the more public our approach has been, the worse, by large degrees the reaction has been as well.
Duppie said:Lee,
I can see that if you berate people in private they might get upset. It is easy to feel as if you are singled out, especially since the poster doesn't know whether you berated anybody else.
I think that consistently applied moderation is a good idea. Maybe instead of dealing with it in private way via PM, deal with it openly, by deleting posts that are just personal attacks or filled with profanity and replacing it with a message stating it got deleted by a moderator and why. If the poster doesn't agree with that he is free to go elsewhere and spout his personal attacks and profanity.
But I take that it is not the direction you guys have taken.
Lee Diamond said:Hey Duppie,
I am still a moderator. Overall, the goal of moderators since I have been one seems to be to have a pretty light-touch. I don't disagree with that, and there are lots of times we discuss postings, and there are times we reach out to individuals, or give them "strikes" or suspend them and even ban them. The funny thing is that, our light touch is portrayed as diabolical censorship and interference and hostility and every other thing you can imagine on the occassions when it is used. Classic damned if you do damned if you don't scenarios over and over, so it is a bit of a winder that doesn't seem to let up.
I also think it goes beyond the Chainlink, as the Chainlink is just the online manifestation of what it is talking about, namely a bicycling community. I've been in numerous social settings over the course of the last few years where the constant theme of conversation is similar amongst the cyclists....exasperation with other cyclists and a laundry list of complaints about how other people cycle.
I say this having recognized it in myself as I grew tired of it. It is kind of easy to think of someone else as part of the problem when you catch them being part of the problem, but what about when you catch yourself doing it?
I am not a fan of the yelling-screaming-way of doing things that we have have degenerated into, as a society, so again, that is just the bicycling community representing a bad progression. I think this group could be what you describe, but that wasn't my intent. I don't mind it turning into anything positive at all, or even nothing. it is just the internets.
i like the idea that it might be a place where ideas are discussed that bring us together though, which I think would be good. It would be nice to talk about constructive ways of talking to others. I think there are ways you can do outreach that people are receptive to, and then ways that get their dander up and shut down your hopes of reaching them. Maybe we could discuss ways to do that....like if you want to get people to lock up better, how do you educate them without them thinking of you as preaching at them, and shutting down? Same thing with any topic....wearing a helmet, being safe, etc.
Part of the creation of this group is just because it seemed like a way to bring the topic itself to the forum. Plus I had to show off my mad art skillz.
Cheers - Lee
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Permalink Reply by David on
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I'm very a much a newcomer to this board, but after a quarter century of floating around internet discussion groups in one form or another my strong feeling is that you can never change people's online behavior. As you say, calling individuals out in public usually just makes it worse. You can try to nudge the impoliteness into a separate forum (which is very difficult given Ning's default homepage setup) or you can just start banning lots of people (heavy moderation inevitably leads to banning, otherwise it's just too much work), and I don't think anybody wants the latter.
I admit to being initially stunned by the tone and lack of respect on many threads here. It's the kind of thing you usually see on political forums rather than a biking or community forum. But after a short time, I think it becomes obvious that this comes from a very small number of people who enjoy pushing each others buttons and being instigators of this sort. The overwhelming number of people on Chainlink seem to be polite, respectful and welcoming.
I think these types of periodic reminders are the best you can do, and they're often very effective in having people calm down just a little bit, which is all you need. Notice that even this thread started to spin out of control but then it calmed down again; that's probably a good sign.
Lee Diamond said:Actually, the more public our approach has been, the worse, by large degrees the reaction has been as well.
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