Self-Thinning of the Herd (Witnessing Dangerous/Stupid Behavior on the Road)

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on July 26, 2010 at 11:34am

I was struck dumb by her comeback, and then I started laughing. She might as well have said "I don't care if I get run over while talking on my phone while on my bike." It was more her response than any beef I have with other cyclists that influenced my thread title, as harsh as it may be. After all, how does one respond to someone who essentially says that a phone call is more important than his or her life? I don't know.

H3N3 said:

Ryan,
I read your post, thanks. I was responding specifically to your rant about the cyclist.
Cyclists get it from all sides-- it's sad that, on top of drivers screaming at you and swerving at you you can't get from A to B on your bike without a cyclist coming down on you for some perceived infraction as well.
If it was your goal to encourage her to ride safely I think you could have thought of a better way to get that across, no?
What did you think of her comeback?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Arrak Thumrs on July 26, 2010 at 11:45am

Well, you asked for it... When I was a teenager, I had been downtown until late at night. I was driving home to the western 'burbs with a friend of mine. We travelled down Congress, passed the post office, and immediately hit a traffic jam. I also distinctly remember the moon was in one of those phases where it is very low to the horizon and very, very large.

While going absolutely nowhere, parked in the middle of the Eisenhower, there was a gang of motorcyclists on crotch-rocket machines weaving recklessly up through the stopped cars between the lanes. Some, when the gap presented itself, were pulling stunts or burn-outs. My friend in the passenger seat decides to roll down his window and scream at them, frustrated with the slow going. "Fu$%^$%, I hope you DIE!!". They keep going and don't even give us an angry glance trying to balance their bikes through the gap---some with their girlfriends riding passenger on the rear.

After a long while, traffic opens up. I forget what it was, but the police had most (all?) the lanes blocked about a 1/2 mile ahead. We clear the jam and have a very open road ahead of us. I come up to speed and it is clear sailing until a little after Austin. I see one of the motorcyclists stopped against the inner barrier up ahead. I notice others in the roadway not far ahead. Next we pass a woman standing in the middle of the highway, crying and a steaming, tangled two-foot cube of metal against the barrier with a lumped canvas spread across the second innermost lane. A police officer was present. No ambulance yet, but it was clear one was not immediately needed at this point.

Let me tell you, the metal obviously used to be a motorcycle, but now it resembled no such machine whatsoever. It was exactly as described: a steaming cube of molten scrap. This guy must have lost control at least 80mph+

As you can imagine, my friend didn't say a single word the rest of the way home.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on July 26, 2010 at 12:09pm

Thanks for the response.
I can't really blame her if she didn't thank you for your concern-- you have to admit the way you communicated it was likely to put her on the defensive.
I guess I'm wondering how you can present her death or injury as a near-certainty based on riding a bike while on the phone? People do it every day without getting injured or killed.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

I was struck dumb by her comeback, and then I started laughing. She might as well have said "I don't care if I get run over while talking on my phone while on my bike." It was more her response than any beef I have with other cyclists that influenced my thread title, as harsh as it may be. After all, how does one respond to someone who essentially says that a phone call is more important than his or her life? I don't know.

H3N3 said:

Ryan,
I read your post, thanks. I was responding specifically to your rant about the cyclist.
Cyclists get it from all sides-- it's sad that, on top of drivers screaming at you and swerving at you you can't get from A to B on your bike without a cyclist coming down on you for some perceived infraction as well.
If it was your goal to encourage her to ride safely I think you could have thought of a better way to get that across, no?
What did you think of her comeback?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by igz on July 26, 2010 at 12:18pm

should this be our approach to drivers who talk/text while driving and survive as well?

i thought it should be a mutually exclusive concern and regard to ensure the safety of those around us, to protect them from our carelessness behind the wheel, as well as behind the handlebar.

its a responsibility we as cyclists should subscribe to, especially if we yell 'get off the phone!' to passing suv's with distracted drivers.

H3N3 said:

I guess I'm wondering how you can present her death or injury as a near-certainty based on riding a bike while on the phone? People do it every day without getting injured or killed.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

I was struck dumb by her comeback, and then I started laughing. She might as well have said "I don't care if I get run over while talking on my phone while on my bike." It was more her response than any beef I have with other cyclists that influenced my thread title, as harsh as it may be. After all, how does one respond to someone who essentially says that a phone call is more important than his or her life? I don't know.

H3N3 said:

Ryan,
I read your post, thanks. I was responding specifically to your rant about the cyclist.
Cyclists get it from all sides-- it's sad that, on top of drivers screaming at you and swerving at you you can't get from A to B on your bike without a cyclist coming down on you for some perceived infraction as well.
If it was your goal to encourage her to ride safely I think you could have thought of a better way to get that across, no?
What did you think of her comeback?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by mike w. on July 26, 2010 at 12:44pm

So, because "people do it every day" makes it okay?

i see people doing dumbass things every day -some of them for years- and never seem to get injured or killed -until they do.

When the inevitable happens, folks always act so surprised and ask, "why?" Boo Hoo.

H3N3 said:

Thanks for the response.
I can't really blame her if she didn't thank you for your concern-- you have to admit the way you communicated it was likely to put her on the defensive.
I guess I'm wondering how you can present her death or injury as a near-certainty based on riding a bike while on the phone? People do it every day without getting injured or killed.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

I was struck dumb by her comeback, and then I started laughing. She might as well have said "I don't care if I get run over while talking on my phone while on my bike." It was more her response than any beef I have with other cyclists that influenced my thread title, as harsh as it may be. After all, how does one respond to someone who essentially says that a phone call is more important than his or her life? I don't know.

H3N3 said:

Ryan,
I read your post, thanks. I was responding specifically to your rant about the cyclist.
Cyclists get it from all sides-- it's sad that, on top of drivers screaming at you and swerving at you you can't get from A to B on your bike without a cyclist coming down on you for some perceived infraction as well.
If it was your goal to encourage her to ride safely I think you could have thought of a better way to get that across, no?
What did you think of her comeback?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on July 26, 2010 at 12:48pm

Iggi,
You don't talk on the cell phone while riding?
There are shades of gray here-- operating a more deadly vehicle greatly increases the chances the choices you make could take others with you. But have we even established that riding a bike while using a phone is dangerous even to the person doing it?

iggi said:

should this be our approach to drivers who talk/text while driving and survive as well?
i thought it should be a mutually exclusive concern and regard to ensure the safety of those around us, to protect them from our carelessness behind the wheel, as well as behind the handlebar. its a responsibility we as cyclists should subscribe to, especially if we yell 'get off the phone!' to passing suv's with distracted drivers.

H3N3 said:

I guess I'm wondering how you can present her death or injury as a near-certainty based on riding a bike while on the phone? People do it every day without getting injured or killed.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

I was struck dumb by her comeback, and then I started laughing. She might as well have said "I don't care if I get run over while talking on my phone while on my bike." It was more her response than any beef I have with other cyclists that influenced my thread title, as harsh as it may be. After all, how does one respond to someone who essentially says that a phone call is more important than his or her life? I don't know.

H3N3 said:

Ryan,
I read your post, thanks. I was responding specifically to your rant about the cyclist.
Cyclists get it from all sides-- it's sad that, on top of drivers screaming at you and swerving at you you can't get from A to B on your bike without a cyclist coming down on you for some perceived infraction as well.
If it was your goal to encourage her to ride safely I think you could have thought of a better way to get that across, no?
What did you think of her comeback?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on July 26, 2010 at 12:59pm

Mike,
You've never talked on a cell phone while on your bike?

So, because "people do it every day" makes it okay?

I certainly wouldn't subscribe to that statement. People start threads bitching about other traffic participants seemingly every day, and clearly I'm speaking up to say I don't think that's OK ;-)
mike w. said:

So, because "people do it every day" makes it okay?
i see people doing dumbass things every day -some of them for years- and never seem to get injured or killed -until they do.
When the inevitable happens, folks always act so surprised and ask, "why?" Boo Hoo.

H3N3 said:

Thanks for the response.
I can't really blame her if she didn't thank you for your concern-- you have to admit the way you communicated it was likely to put her on the defensive.
I guess I'm wondering how you can present her death or injury as a near-certainty based on riding a bike while on the phone? People do it every day without getting injured or killed.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

I was struck dumb by her comeback, and then I started laughing. She might as well have said "I don't care if I get run over while talking on my phone while on my bike." It was more her response than any beef I have with other cyclists that influenced my thread title, as harsh as it may be. After all, how does one respond to someone who essentially says that a phone call is more important than his or her life? I don't know.

H3N3 said:

Ryan,
I read your post, thanks. I was responding specifically to your rant about the cyclist.
Cyclists get it from all sides-- it's sad that, on top of drivers screaming at you and swerving at you you can't get from A to B on your bike without a cyclist coming down on you for some perceived infraction as well.
If it was your goal to encourage her to ride safely I think you could have thought of a better way to get that across, no?
What did you think of her comeback?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on July 26, 2010 at 1:08pm

Operating a smaller less protected one makes you more likely to die when your attention wanders...

H3N3 said:

Iggi,
You don't talk on the cell phone while riding?
There are shades of gray here-- operating a more deadly vehicle greatly increases the chances the choices you make could take others with you. But have we even established that riding a bike while using a phone is dangerous even to the person doing it?

iggi said:

should this be our approach to drivers who talk/text while driving and survive as well?
i thought it should be a mutually exclusive concern and regard to ensure the safety of those around us, to protect them from our carelessness behind the wheel, as well as behind the handlebar. its a responsibility we as cyclists should subscribe to, especially if we yell 'get off the phone!' to passing suv's with distracted drivers.

H3N3 said:

I guess I'm wondering how you can present her death or injury as a near-certainty based on riding a bike while on the phone? People do it every day without getting injured or killed.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

I was struck dumb by her comeback, and then I started laughing. She might as well have said "I don't care if I get run over while talking on my phone while on my bike." It was more her response than any beef I have with other cyclists that influenced my thread title, as harsh as it may be. After all, how does one respond to someone who essentially says that a phone call is more important than his or her life? I don't know.

H3N3 said:

Ryan,
I read your post, thanks. I was responding specifically to your rant about the cyclist.
Cyclists get it from all sides-- it's sad that, on top of drivers screaming at you and swerving at you you can't get from A to B on your bike without a cyclist coming down on you for some perceived infraction as well.
If it was your goal to encourage her to ride safely I think you could have thought of a better way to get that across, no?
What did you think of her comeback?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Spencer "Thunderball" Thayer! on July 26, 2010 at 1:11pm

I think this conversation could use a little help from John Stuart, not of Daily Show fame, but the John Stuart Mill of Utilitarian fame...

The object of this [POST REPLY] is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

John Stuart Mill, On Liberty page 12.

For a rebuttal this The Liberal Critique of the Harm Principle, is pretty decent, http://bit.ly/8Yas35. Note: I don't really agree with the critique author.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on July 26, 2010 at 1:14pm

Not sure if you're agreeing with her comeback or commenting on the "F you, I'll take my life into my own hands." aspect of it.

Either way, I can turn my head, but I can not close off my ears to the accompanying sounds (none of which are sure to be pleasant).

It's a response I'm not going to forget for a while, that's for sure.

Kevin Conway said:

Actually, I love the answer... "OK, don't watch."

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Arrak Thumrs on July 26, 2010 at 1:19pm

A note regarding mutual concern...

When my mother was younger, she was driving in LaGrange. A young kid on a bike was being chased. He was trying to get away and rode full speed out of an alley, past the sidewalk and... collided straight into and over the front hood/windshield of her car. Later, as an adult, when I became interested in bicycles, I tried to persuade her to ride a bike I made for her to the gym she uses about one mile away. Turns out, after much prodding, she is forever afraid of riding a bicycle in traffic because she associates it with that incident years ago. She believes it is inherently dangerous unless you can ride entirely on dedicated, off-road trails.

This has no bearing on my point or her reaction, but I still find it a poor public service that she received a ticket for that collision even though it was unavoidable as a driver. The cyclist admitted to the police what happened, why, etc. It all went in the police report... but the law apparently dictated that the driver still receive a ticket.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on July 26, 2010 at 1:22pm

Based on her "F you, I'll do whatever I want while riding my bike in traffic" attitude, I would bet that yakking on her phone isn't a once-in-a-while occurrence. Mind you, she was on it not once but twice with a mile, and they weren't short yes/no/I'll be there in 5 minutes conversations.

Oh, and no helmet and sunglasses at dusk. But then, maybe she'll beat the laws of probabilities and raise a gaggle of kids who have similar disregard for their own safety.

H3N3 said:

Thanks for the response.
I guess I'm wondering how you can present her death or injury as a near-certainty based on riding a bike while on the phone? People do it every day without getting injured or killed. Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:

I was struck dumb by her comeback, and then I started laughing. She might as well have said "I don't care if I get run over while talking on my phone while on my bike." It was more her response than any beef I have with other cyclists that influenced my thread title, as harsh as it may be. After all, how does one respond to someone who essentially says that a phone call is more important than his or her life? I don't know.

H3N3 said:

Ryan,
I read your post, thanks. I was responding specifically to your rant about the cyclist.
Cyclists get it from all sides-- it's sad that, on top of drivers screaming at you and swerving at you you can't get from A to B on your bike without a cyclist coming down on you for some perceived infraction as well.
If it was your goal to encourage her to ride safely I think you could have thought of a better way to get that across, no? What did you think of her comeback?

• ▶ Reply

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