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Internally geared hubs

Winter riding seems better suited to internal gears. I've been eyeballing SRAM internally geared hubs pretty hard, especially the SRAM/Sachs Spectro - any reviews/opinions?

After a lot of searching around I've concluded that my dream bike would look a lot like a Thorn Tour: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/raventour.html

How do I accomplish something reliable that is like this (for less that $500 perhaps) without having to worry if the hub will fail? I'd really like to ditch my derailleur on the winter bike for fast shifting when I hit a pile of snow.

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Permalink Reply by J on January 24, 2009 at 10:33am
Generally speaking, it's better (and almost always cheaper) to buy a complete internally geared bike rather than convert an existing commuter. The most obvious reason is the need for horizontal dropouts, but other issues like rear dropout spacing and chainline can make your life difficult. That said, I've retrofitted many mountain, city, track and cyclocross bikes with everything from Sturmey Archer AW3s to Shimano Nexus to the occasional Rohloff.

Once you've walked yourself through the drawbacks (weight, cost, frame limitations, gear ratios) and determined that it's the most practical approach for your build, I would start to winnow your options based on gear ratio, price, and braking requirements. (Note too that handlebar choice is very limited when running internal hubs due to the shifter style.) Personally, I prefer internally geared hubs with coaster brakes paired with a strong front hand (or even better, drum) brake for serious four season commuter setups. Among advocates, you will find religious wars re: Shimano vs SRAM, vs Sturmey Archer -- but each system has their merits and problems.

Among the contemporary systems, you will probably be limited to the Sturmey Archer or Shimano 8 speed hubs in your price range -- although you might also look into the SRAM i-9 -- which is much much nicer. But if you just want to do it on a very simple budget, then take a look at your bottom bracket and cranks first and see if you can convert it to an appropriate single speed crank (and chainline) with the right gearing. If you're lucky, that would only cost <$10 for new chainring bolts. You can probably keep your chain in a pinch by just shortening it -- and then look into either buying a prefab wheel or relacing on your current rear wheel. Depending on wheat system you choose, this will run between $100-300.

So a very basic setup (ie Shimano Nexus 3 speed relaced to existing rim) could run as little as $100 and something nicer like a Sturmey Archer or Nexus 8 speed with a new wheel setup would be in the $350 range.
Permalink Reply by Matt M. 18.5KM on January 25, 2009 at 12:15pm
Ok. So what's the verdict on NuVinci? I've heard a rumor they're outperforming Rohloff....

J said:
Generally speaking, it's better (and almost always cheaper) to buy a complete internally geared bike rather than convert an existing commuter. The most obvious reason is the need for horizontal dropouts, but other issues like rear dropout spacing and chainline can make your life difficult. That said, I've retrofitted many mountain, city, track and cyclocross bikes with everything from Sturmey Archer AW3s to Shimano Nexus to the occasional Rohloff.

Once you've walked yourself through the drawbacks (weight, cost, frame limitations, gear ratios) and determined that it's the most practical approach for your build, I would start to winnow your options based on gear ratio, price, and braking requirements. (Note too that handlebar choice is very limited when running internal hubs due to the shifter style.) Personally, I prefer internally geared hubs with coaster brakes paired with a strong front hand (or even better, drum) brake for serious four season commuter setups. Among advocates, you will find religious wars re: Shimano vs SRAM, vs Sturmey Archer -- but each system has their merits and problems.

Among the contemporary systems, you will probably be limited to the Sturmey Archer or Shimano 8 speed hubs in your price range -- although you might also look into the SRAM i-9 -- which is much much nicer. But if you just want to do it on a very simple budget, then take a look at your bottom bracket and cranks first and see if you can convert it to an appropriate single speed crank (and chainline) with the right gearing. If you're lucky, that would only cost <$10 for new chainring bolts. You can probably keep your chain in a pinch by just shortening it -- and then look into either buying a prefab wheel or relacing on your current rear wheel. Depending on wheat system you choose, this will run between $100-300.

So a very basic setup (ie Shimano Nexus 3 speed relaced to existing rim) could run as little as $100 and something nicer like a Sturmey Archer or Nexus 8 speed with a new wheel setup would be in the $350 range.
Permalink Reply by J on January 25, 2009 at 12:36pm
Matt M. said:
Ok. So what's the verdict on NuVinci? I've heard a rumor they're outperforming Rohloff....


I'm not sure what you mean by outperforming... but in terms of gearing, price & quality, it's much closer to the higher end Shimano and SRAM systems, not Rohloff. The Rohloff system has been around for several years and is much improved over the earlier versions. It is extremely durable and does have the shifting action of higher end (XT/XTR) mechs. The Rohloff hub is 1.7kg and the Nuvinci is 4.2kg! And most importantly, the gear ratio of Rohloff is 525% vs 340% for the Nuvinci.

If your budget is $500, the Nuvinci might be possible, especially if you are keeping your crank. You'd just need to buy/build a new wheel and if you do the labor yourself, you'd probably come in right at $500 -- but I would strongly suggest that you ride one of these first and compare it to the competitors before you spend the extra money and take the gram hit!
Permalink Reply by Joe Studer 8.0 mi on October 16, 2009 at 3:31pm
Matt - Did you ever make a switch to an internally geared hub?
Permalink Reply by Matt M. 18.5KM on October 16, 2009 at 3:49pm
Nope. Still derailleur. I built up a touring bike instead....... My next big step is purchasing a folding bike.

Not doing internally geared until it's practical for me financially. I'll go for the best meaning a Rohloff Speedhub.

Joe said:
Matt - Did you ever make a switch to an internally geared hub?
Permalink Reply by Joe Studer 8.0 mi on October 16, 2009 at 4:42pm
Matt M. said:
I'll go for the best meaning a Rohloff Speedhub.

Yeah. That Speedhub looks quite nice. I'm thinking about building up a bike around that.
Permalink Reply by Arrak Thumrs on October 16, 2009 at 5:12pm
I always love these discussions... The stereotypes are first to fly on all the "drawbacks". Some are blatantly untrue. A good example is the wealth of options for shifters available now. Jtek makes bar-end shifters for many models: http://jtekengineering.com/ There is now even a new road brake with built in shifter ("brifter") available: http://www.sussex.com.tw/versa.html Although, it has yet to reach retailers as of yet. Then there are the easily found bar adapters made by HubBub.

Don't be scared. IG are not so complicated. And most fit a pretty standard chainline. If you get the 3/32" sprocket instead of the single-speed 1/8", it is even less of an issue. Your chain can bend, like it was designed to do on a derailleur. So lining things up isn't exactly rocket science.

Having said all of that, the SRAM hubs negate all the handlebar options. I've spoken to Jtek about this, and the 5 and 7 speed Spectro's just aren't popular enough to warrant a model. The one that is, the 9 speed, has a design that requires too much cable travel to work with the Jtek bar-end system. You might like to keep that in mind.
Permalink Reply by J on October 16, 2009 at 5:29pm
I guess you're referring to my post, and I stand by the statement that "weight, cost, frame limitations, gear ratios" are all drawbacks of internally geared drivetrains for retrofits. I'm not sure how these things can't be seen as drawbacks. That's not to say that the benefits don't outweigh them, but this is a niche market for a reason.

As for shifter options, well... Jtek is out of business, and I've seen the Versa shifter and it's really shoddy compared to other modern brifters.

That said, for low torque city bike applications and bicycles/frames designed around the notions of internally geared drivetrains, they're great for flat cities like Chicago with real weather, no doubt about it. But I think internally geared systems are often portrayed as some type of universal panacea for all-purpose cycling, and they're just not.

Matt's original post refers to the Thorn Raven, a dream trekking bike for many -- but it's kind of in a class of its own. The vast majority of internally geared bikes are far more utilitarian.
Permalink Reply by Arrak Thumrs on October 16, 2009 at 5:55pm
"weight, cost frame limitations, gear ratios"
I thought we were riding this bike through the snow, not on the TDF?

Plus, I've heard it, tried it, etc. There is not much a weight difference between, say, an Alfine 8speed and a typical derailleur set-up. No rear derailleur, no sprocket cluster, no front derailleur, no second chainring on front... Sure, there's difference but the real really-O weight weenies are the only ones that will care.

I've never got the obsession with excessive overall gear range either. I've ridden gears, I've ridden SS. In all reality, I only really use 5 gears no matter how many are available. 8 with a full ratio of 307% doesn't sound like a drawback to this midwestern flatlander.

Frame limitations... Only if you have vertical drops.

Bar options... I didn't know Jtek was out of business. Bummer! Their products are still easy to find around still. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for someone to fill the blank on that product line.

Different strokes for different folks.
Permalink Reply by Matt M. 18.5KM on October 16, 2009 at 6:12pm
DAMN! The JTek guy has cancer!!! His gadgets are really handy! I hope he sells the business to somebody who will keep it going!

Arrak Thumrs said:
"weight, cost frame limitations, gear ratios"
I thought we were riding this bike through the snow, not on the TDF?

Plus, I've heard it, tried it, etc. There is not much a weight difference between, say, an Alfine 8speed and a typical derailleur set-up. No rear derailleur, no sprocket cluster, no front derailleur, no second chainring on front... Sure, there's difference but the real really-O weight weenies are the only ones that will care.

I've never got the obsession with excessive overall gear range either. I've ridden gears, I've ridden SS. In all reality, I only really use 5 gears no matter how many are available. 8 with a full ratio of 307% doesn't sound like a drawback to this midwestern flatlander.

Frame limitations... Only if you have vertical drops.

Bar options... I didn't know Jtek was out of business. Bummer! Their products are still easy to find around still. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for someone to fill the blank on that product line.

Different strokes for different folks.
Permalink Reply by J on October 16, 2009 at 6:13pm
Well, I will say that with Alfine things have gotten better and who know what 5-10 years will bring us?

But I think the riding in the snow vs riding the TDF is a false analogy. My point is that internally geared systems have benefits (low maintenance, clean lines, chain guard friendly) etc. I too ride an old AW3 system and love it. But just because you ride in the snow doesn't mean your bike should be heavier or less efficient (drag on IG hubs is still very high) than it could be.

The development of Alfine was precisely because these things are seen by drawbacks by most riders. You don't need to ride the Alps to appreciate a hubs that weighs less than 900g. Some of us carry our commuters up stairs, down basements, etc.

Some folks are fortunate with retrofits to be sure, but as any experienced mechanic knows -- they are more often than not pretty complicated projects that require a lot of tinkering. My point is that there are some perfectly good, perfectly affordable IG commuter bikes on the market that mostly negate the need to engage in retrofits. But there isn't really anything affordable that can do what Matt wants.

Again, I think we're talking about two different types of bikes. The original post was about a dream trekking bike -- not something limited to low speed, flat riding in Chicago winter. For most people, 307% doesn't work for loaded touring or for that matter, most local centuries. For the riding you're describing, there's nothing wrong with a simple single speed or AW3 for that matter.
Permalink Reply by Arrak Thumrs on October 16, 2009 at 6:33pm
First dream bike I've ever heard of for "less than $500". Pointless discussion.

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