Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by V W on July 19, 2017 at 10:02am

I respectfully disagree that making online statements about a legal issue is inherently problematic. It's problematic when those statements are inconsistent with other statements given by the same person, say, in a deposition. But if he's telling the truth now and later on if and when called to give testimony, it shouldn't be a problem. I think it's one of those rules where people forget why it's a "rule" in the first place and then err too far on the side of never discussing anything online ever, even where it wouldn't be a problem to do so.

Permalink Reply by David Barish on July 19, 2017 at 10:36am

i am an attorney.  I  am not  involved  with this tragic incident.  I  advise my clients  not  to  talk openly about  their  case as things  get taken out  of context and misconstrued.  Insurance companies routinely check  social media and other sites  for  anything they can use to defend a claim.   There  is no value in publicly talking  about  the details of  a crash etc in  a public forum. We,  and now the  world, know that  there is  video of this  crash.  We  have  a few  details from a  post  above.  

Frankly, any more discussion or  description does no good to  any of the  parties either the  cyclist  or the  driver.   Let  them review the  video, let them talk with witnesses and  let them come up with their spin as to  what  happened and why. We can speculate all  we want  but the  parties are  not  helped by a  public airing of these things.  Since, by  definition (this is  a  cycling forum) we are  sympathetic to the cyclist we  don't  want to  do anything to hurt  the cyclist's interest. 

There is no rule.  At  this point people are  allowed do do  whatever  they want and say whatever  they want and  publicly air whatever they want.  However, good judgement says these things are  not  going  to help the cyclist. 

The forum has  served  a purpose and has  helped the  cyclist  up to this point.   The forum helped  Cheryl and James find each  other. How  cool is  that? Now that is done we can leave it to them.

Permalink Reply by ad on July 19, 2017 at 10:45am

At least from a victim perspective, I think the issue boils down to the fact that you have probably very little to gain by coming on here and giving the details of an accident you were involved in (especially if you do intend to pursue legal recourse), and potentially a lot to lose if you accidentally say something inconsistent with testimony you give later.  Even when people are telling the truth, their stories can vary, and the reward of venting to the community likely isn't worth the risk of creating a harmful record.    

Come on here and ask for witness, ask for recommendations for attorneys, etc., but I'd say leave the details of discussing the particulars of what occurred to discussions with the police and your attorney. 

I guarantee that any personal injury attorney worth their salt would tell you NOT to come on here and discuss the details of an accident, and any defense attorney worth their salt does a social media search to see if they can get impeachment material on a plaintiff. 

Permalink Reply by Tom A.K. on July 19, 2017 at 11:10am

I agree with David Barish and ad, I believe that it is of no appropriate value to discuss details any further here. If there are any other witnesses willing to come forward and help this cyclist, please contact his mother, Cheryl Knap, in a private message.
Other appropriate comments and get-well wishes for the injured cyclist are welcomed, and then responses will be closed for further discussion.
Thank you Cycling Community !

Permalink Reply by Tony Adams on July 20, 2017 at 6:25am

I'm sure the advice is sound from a legal perspective, but to assert that 

 There  is no value in publicly talking  about  the details of  a crash etc in a public forum. 

seems to entirely miss the point of a public forum - it is a place to learn and hammer out ideas, celebrate and form community. How are any of these ends served by picking a random moment to cease discussion of any given topic?  

Permalink Reply by V W on July 20, 2017 at 6:42am

Thanks Tony, I think you're getting at my point. I am a lawyer too FWIW. I get that there's a rule of thumb to avoid making statements that could be used against you later on. I get that there's a reason lawyers tell people to steer clear of such discussion. My point is that there's value in understanding the reason for that rule of thumb (note that I never called it a rule or claimed there was one, but rather called it a "rule" in quotes) , and understanding where the line is, so you don't cross it, but also so that you have the option of walking right up to it in an informed manner (as opposed to always steering more clear than you might need to).

Permalink Reply by ad on July 20, 2017 at 7:36am

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I'm going to say one last point that I think people should hear.  

If you get in an accident, and have even an inkling that you might file a lawsuit/insurance claim, etc. against the person who hit you, I would strongly suggest you contact an attorney before coming on here and talking about details.  There is a very valid principle behind the general "rule" that it's best not to discuss specific details in a public forum, and an attorney can explain why it's best to avoid discussing certain things to you quickly and clearly during a consult.  If an attorney takes your case, they will also likely be willing to help walk you through what is generally safe to talk about going forward, and what's not.  No harm in talking to one first.  You can't erase something once it's out there, so all I'm saying is be careful.   

I'll leave it at that.  FWIW, I'm a lawyer as well, and one that litigates and has seen things blow up in people's faces in depositions, but I'm posting anonymously, so people can chose to listen or not listen to me as they see fit.    

Permalink Reply by V W on July 20, 2017 at 10:17am

I will say one last piece as well. The "rule" we are talking about generally applies to parties. Plaintiffs and defendants, and to a degree, third party witnesses (although outside of perjury, a witness often doesn't have much skin in the game when it comes to who wins or loses from their testimony). As noted, this is a forum. We are not a court of law. We are a court of public opinion. We are the cycling community, but we aren't a monolith, and we benefit from a free flow of discussion.

My underlying point was that there's a chilling effect to the free flow of speech when people take a "rule of thumb" like that to an extreme, so it's better to be informed about the "whys" behind it all.

Permalink Reply by Jim Reho on July 20, 2017 at 8:02pm

Tom A.K., although I have the greatest respect for your many contributions to this forum, I'm more with Tony and V W on this one, and in fact would go a step further than they do.  I'm not here to be a lawyer.  I'm here to talk about cycling and to get to the truths about cycling and events concerning cycling.  As forthrightly and frankly as possible.  People are tip-toeing about the 900-pound gorilla in the room here.  Like everyone else, I am incredibly happy that this cyclist survived.  Watching the video, it's miraculous.  But I'm going to come right out and say it, as someone who goes through that same intersection frequently.  What in the world was this guy thinking of, if anything?  If he had even looked both ways, particularly to his left, he would have seen that he should not be crossing that intersection at that time.  If he hadn't been hit by someone going westbound, he would have been hit by someone going eastbound.  What he did was, to use a non-legal term, crazy.  I wonder what he was doing in the hours preceding the crash, not to mention his attire or lack thereof.  I get livid when I see videos of car and truck drivers abusing cyclists.  But that does not mean that, as a cyclist, I refuse to acknowledge when cyclists do stupid things, or want people to refuse to talk about them.  That does not do us, as cyclists, one bit of good.  Truth will, and should, out.         

Permalink Reply by Tom A.K. on July 22, 2017 at 3:51pm

Thank you very much for the compliment Jim. I was just reviewing the discussion again and noticed it. I think we are in agreement on a lot of things but our approach and methods differ. 'Community!' . . .

Permalink Reply by Anne Alt on July 21, 2017 at 5:40am

Sending healing thoughts, hoping he can make a good recovery.

Cheryl - Having public, searchable discussion about the facts of the incident and opinion on the incident is not good for any potential insurance claim or lawsuit. Insurance adjusters and opposing lawyers can find this stuff online. Sending a friend request to James and exchanging private messages is a much better idea. 

In general, I am in favor of free speech. However, I don't want to see public, searchable discussion negatively affect anyone's potential case. If you want portions of this discussion deleted for this reason, one of the admins on this forum can do so at your request.

Permalink Reply by Yasmeen on July 21, 2017 at 5:42am

Anne, thanks for mentioning. Yes, we can delete comments. Please feel free to DM me if you need to.

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